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  • #10348
    raphaelcno
    raphaelcno
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    (Waxberry)
    If you notice from our QWERTY layout, some symbols were placed on the left, to make the letters in the middle to be reachable with both thumb. Just copying a PC layout will shift the main letters too close to left and make it harder for the right thumb.

    @waxberry
    Your argument would be correct if the keys on the left side of the keyboard were more often used than the national letters.
    In reality there are four keys on the left side of keyboard (Q, W, Z/Y, X) which are rarely used, so it is not a problem if they are less accessible for the left/right thumbs.
    It is more important to have a keyboard layout that is similar to a usual keyboard, with national/accented characters (ä, ö…) accessible without having to press Fn or other key combination. National characters are more often used than Q, W, Z/Y, X.
    The same is true for Scandinavian keyboard.
    I agree with EskeRahn that the right-shift of the A-Z should only be used on the English keyboard layout.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #10430
    dreamflasher
    dreamflasher
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    Yeah, please don’t do the right shift and leave it with the normal layout everyone is used to. It’s fine to add additional symbols on keys, but major changes like the shifting right is horrible from a UX perspective.

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    #10989
    Testdevice
    TeZtdevice
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    Replies: 32
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    Any update news from f(x)tec members? :-)

    #11136
    dreamflasher
    dreamflasher
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    It would be amazing if you’d add “qwertz layout, EU plug” to the pre-order options! :) Shouldn’t be too difficult to just add the option, right? Handling and processing it will be done later anyways, and as it’s a pre order I don’t think you’re obligated to deliver nor do the customers need to actually buy. But it would be a great signal and make a bunch of ppl happy and more pre-orders :)

    3 users thanked author for this post.
    #11147
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    It would be amazing if you’d add “qwertz layout, EU plug” to the pre-order options! :) Shouldn’t be too difficult to just add the option, right? Handling and processing it will be done later anyways, and as it’s a pre order I don’t think you’re obligated to deliver nor do the customers need to actually buy. But it would be a great signal and make a bunch of ppl happy and more pre-orders :)

    Well IF the keyboard is ‘fixed’ and has to be factory mounted you are right. But IF the keyboard is a thing that is easy to replace for us as users, it might simplify (and thus reduce the costs) to deliver all with QWERTY, and have the QWERTZ, Scandic, AZERTY … or whatever, be a completely separate thing following later.
    The pre-order page got a FAQ that could indicate that is what they plan to do (but I do not know)

    When will you support other keyboard layouts (QWERTZ, AZERTY, Scandi etc)
    The Pro1 will ship with QWERTY keyboard layout, when there is sufficient demand we will create additional keyboard layouts.

    My personal GUESS is that they are very busy with the device, and see the different layout-prints a bit like cherries on top of the cake, that will be handled at a later stage (remember this is a new company, and not a huge corporation with thousands of employees). I assume that we will be able to select different software layouts, no matter what is printed on the keys.

    #11186
    Waxberry
    Waxberry
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    Topics: 6
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    Any update news from f(x)tec members? :-)

    We are committed to bring the QWERTZ version. Currently designing layout based on the suggestions in this thread.

    (Hint: News could be as early as next week.)

    4 users thanked author for this post.
    #11188
    Waxberry
    Waxberry
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    Thanks to TeZtDevices, here are the two options: Not exactly as our layout but similar:

    QWERTZ1

    This looks good from a UX perspective, but my worry is that the letters are too close to left and as the device is big it makes right thumb quite stretching.

    QWERTZ2

    This is my current favourite. As it gives unified experience with QWERTY and the extra letters are also easily accessible.

    Attachments:
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    #11196
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    @Waxberry, I for one would definitely go for the first of the two. Remember that the national letters are there for a reason: Common usage.
    And the idea of the QWERTY/QWERTZ/AZERTY/… is that the letters to the very left/right of the standard block is the least used ones.
    The whole point of swapping Y/Z as that Y is really rarely used in German, and Z frequently used. (They got Ü for the sound where we use Y).
    Thus it is NOT a big deal that the leftmost letters are the hardest to reach.

    And as said earlier, it could even be used in Scandinavia, if not enough users show interest to sustain a dedicated scandinavian one.

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    #11206
    alex.ruediger
    elvissteinjr
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    One problem with the umlauts being behind FN that just came to mind is writing capital letters. You’ll have to thumbtype 3 keystrokes. I don’t know if there’s any stickykey functionality on shift or FN, but I wouldn’t exactly be a fan of that either.
    Ideally I’d expect every key to be reasonable well reachable on the keyboard. The kind of people who use touch keyboards don’t seem to have problems reaching all edges of the screen either. I don’t have a Pro1 to judge myself of course, but I imagine it can’t be as bad as you make it seem.

    As I said before, both will be useable as typing on the small keyboard is an experience somewhat disconnected from normal keyboard typing. Nevertheless if there are no technical issues, I’d recommend going with something that is as close to the well established layout as possible.

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    #11221
    Keyahnig
    Keyahnig
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    I like the second version (the one with a/ä, o/ö, u/ü on the same button) slightly more. I think it would be easier to type fast on that one and it looks less cramped.
    I can imagine the first version (the one with dedicated ä, ö, ü buttons) is better for people who would use this keyboard for other layouts.
    But honestly both layouts look quite good.

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    #11238
    Testdevice
    TeZtdevice
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    I like version 2.
    Thx for reply, Waxberry !

    #11240
    kontakt
    Benjamin
    Participant
    Topics: 1
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    @waxberry I’m with @eskerahn on the layout, as pressing two modifiers for an upper case umlaut would break the typing experience.
    (I think that I don’t really have an issue with moving other symbols to the left)

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #11250
    Testdevice
    TeZtdevice
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    I like version 2.

    Thx for reply, Waxberry !

    I changed my favourite to version 1 :-)
    And another +1 for version 1 (said my girlfriend)

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    #11277
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    I would be in for an all black keyboard! (only half a joke would love it). But as far as a preprinted layout goes:
    Two Modifiers for a capital umlaut are normal for a Swiss layout, that is not the big problem here.

    But to put keys to the left side which are normally on the right, will give everybody a hard time getting used to it (I mean have you ever changed your keyboard layout? It takes an awful amount of time to get back to your old tipping speed. And you can believe me an all black keyboard does not help)

    I think it is a stupid idea to be creative here. There are a lot of “better” layouts out in the world (dvorak and so on).
    But nearly nobody uses it since the advantage is minimal compared to the amount of time needed to learn it.
    So the time has shown that this “better” layouts do not sell all to well.

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    #11279
    OliverTypes
    OliverTypes
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    I second the notion that umlauts behind modifiers are not a good idea. Not only because of (rare) capitalized umlauts requiring a triple-press but because it makes each and every (common) regular umlaut a nuisance.

    A possible workaround could be to substitute the function-key with a long-press, so long-press “a” for “ä” etc. like we see on virtual keyboards. That would be a slightly less fluent than dedicated keys but requires no additional acrobatics.

    I also second the idea of making QWERTZ available for pre-order ;)

    Thank you very much for keeping us updated :) I have a few QWERTZ-fans among my friends and keep sharing your posts to whet their appetite.

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