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  • #12996
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    One question to the suggested Layout: Why is the order of the brackets like that: { [ ] } and not like thath { } [ ].

    It is not a big problem but seems rather special.

    Below a crop from a PC QWERTZ keyboards, so it is to get close to that.

    Interesting, in the US, Swiss and German Layout ( and ) are right next to each other (Of course not on the same keys, that would made it to easy to switch).
    The reason I ask is, because I believe a lot of people insert both braces after each other and then use the back key to get inside it (You see that a lot in programming at least). This is not a productive thing to do so it isn’t to bad to make it harder ;-).

    #13064
    Jacob_S
    Jacob_S
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    As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.
    But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)
    As you can see above I personally prefer Strg over STRG/strg but that’s one of the less important things.

    Regarding the positioning of symbols I like raphaelcno’s version a lot, but would suggest swapping ‘ to the ä key and # to the ü key, as I need ‘ way more often. Or are there arguments for the current placement?

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #13069
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.
    But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

    The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

    Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

    This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

    I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

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    jcp jcp
    #13075
    Keyahnig
    Keyahnig
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    As far as I know Austrians use the same layout as Germans.

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #13110
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

    But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

    The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

    Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

    This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

    I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

    As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: “Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout”. It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #13124
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    …It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

    Feel exactly the same, especially if it is the print only, and we can select a national layout if we so choose. So we can choose between using the standard layout printed, but not perfectly fitting, or a national layout slightly different from the printed.

    I would say that more than 90% of the time I use my Danish-printed PC-keyboard with a logic US-layout, primarily to get to brackets and braces easily for coding.(but also since there were no Danish layout for the first computers I used, I made my own keyboard driver back then…)

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #13220
    Zimeon
    Zimeon
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    Pretty much the opposite for me, 99% of the time I use Scandinavian layout and only when there’s some compability issues i revert to US layout. Anyway, hope to get some official answer what the options will be, if there will be any.

    #13222
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    Pretty much the opposite for me, 99% of the time I use Scandinavian layout and only when there’s some compability issues i revert to US layout. Anyway, hope to get some official answer what the options will be, if there will be any.

    Don’t get me wrong, my point was that it is not that important, what is actually printed on the key, as long as it is not way off. I mean a Dvorak print or the shifted QWERTY print would be problematic used with Danish layout. But anything roughly close would work with Danish for me. And the suggested QWERTZ is certainly close enough for me :) – But sure I would prefer a Scandinavian print.

    #13255
    dreamflasher
    dreamflasher
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    The absolutely best would have been to find a way for people to print their own layout :D I have no clue how this production processes work, but if one would get the US layout per default, and you can pay another 10usd for your customized layout, gosh!

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    #13261
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    The absolutely best would have been to find a way for people to print their own layout :D I have no clue how this production processes work, but if one would get the US layout per default, and you can pay another 10usd for your customized layout, gosh!

    Now THAT would be awresome, though I doubt $10 could cover the cost of handling them individually…
    Continuing on the customization wishes, imagine 3D-prints in a suitable partly transparent elastic material…

    #13612
    jcp
    jcp
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    How is the demand for other keyboard layout assessed? Will there be a vote open on this forum for the different layouts?
    I have not seen thread in this forum for other options than the “German QWERTZ”. Why “German” by the way? I see on this thread users voicing interest for Scandivian layout but also AZERTY layout, and Spanish. QWERTZ could also be the Swiss QWERTZ. I personnally believe it is a good compromise between the German QWERTZ and French AZERTY options.

    #13614
    jcp
    jcp
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    As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

    But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

    The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

    Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

    This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

    I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

    As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: “Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout”. It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

    I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.
    At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

    #13616
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
    Keymaster
    Topics: 10
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    I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.
    At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

    I’m quite sure that we will be able to have the layout we want software-wise, including all kind of special symbols and nationally bound letters. So the discussion here is merely on what should be printed on the keys.

    It is an interesting idea if a Swiss layout could be a compromise that is acceptable to several nationalities.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    jcp jcp
    #13618
    alex.ruediger
    elvissteinjr
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    So there’s been some ideas floating around since the last official version posted here, some which I disagree with, some which are okay.
    Might sound selfish, but I’d personally prefer a German centered QWERTZ layout with little to no symbols from other layouts mixed in. Software layout can be whatever. This is about the labels.

    So what’s the state of the official layout right now? What’s the deadline on it?
    We need to be done with this at some point I suppose and perhaps also get some additional pointers in regards what’s actually up to discussion right now and decided on that.

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    #13625
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    Thanked: 145 times

    As the layout seems to be mainly for German users and only additionally for Scandic/Swiss etc. I would favor choosing German Strg/Entf etc., especially as some others already said they don’t really mind what’s printed there.

    But I have to admit that’s easy to say as a German ;)

    The whole point in this thread is that people tell what would be the best qwertZ keyboard for them, so we should listen to you. That people of other nationalities (like me) might find it closer to what they want than the US qwertY, I would say is just a bonus.

    Have we heard any voices from Austria in here? Do they use the exact same layout as in Germany, or does it (like Swiss) have some differences?

    This claims that it is the same for Germany and Austria AND displays the differences with the one for Switzerland&Luxembourg according to IBM. The difference mainly being the later ease the use of French. Plus Brackets, Braces and other symbols placed differently

    I early on suggested an ‘open’ layout, intended to be used not as a general international keyboard, but as a base for national layouts usable in many countries, with prints of the national letters ‘missing’ on a few keys, so we would have to remember these few by hart (or write on the keys manually)

    As a Swiss I have to admit. We are a really small market. And Switzerland is the iPhone country per excellence. So while I would love to have a real swiss layout to choose from it is probably not worth the struggle out of a business perspective. I think it is better to make a Layout which fits one market perfectly then try to blend all possible qwertz layouts together. Yes some people might be of the loosing side. But the worst thing for the phone would be when everybody says: “Yes the keyboard is good, but has a strange layout”. It is way more acceptable if someone says “Yes it is good, it has the US-Layout tough”. This has never stopped early-adopters.

    I am personally using a Swiss keyboard on my PC for the following reason: I do extensive usage of English, French and German. Although you are right in saying the Swiss market is a niche, the Swiss layout is a good response to the needs of French and German communities. Releasing a Swiss QWERTZ would allow Fxtec to gain access to a larger market.

    At the moment what stops me ordering is the lack of clarity on the keyboard layout. For me one important advantage of the hardware keyboard over the virtual screen keyboard is indeed an easy access to all these special characters (symbols and accentuated letters).

    I mean if everybody wants a Swiss layout go on. But there is no need to get access to the markets. The US-International Keyboard handles German/Swiss-German/French/English already perfectly (and Spanish and some Scandinavian stuff). If other people can get used to the Swiss layout it should be no problem as a Swiss to get used to the US-International layout. Yes it may be a little slower to type umlauts. But it seems stupid to make a niche like Switzerland happy and everybody else has to get used to it.
    From a business perspective it would be the cleverest to look at the pre-orders, pick the country with the most and make a layout as close to the default as possible for that country (well the potential size of the country will be important too. So again Switzerland isn’t the best choice).
    This is the market where most people will see the phone. A native layout will be important in that. If everybody has to say: “Well the layout is unusual but you get used to it” it will be bad advertisement. Have a look at how Dvorak has played out outside of the tech-community.

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