Sticky modifiers

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  • #34378
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    I would like to hear an official statement if the sticky modifier keys will come or not.
    This is a must for me since I ordered the US layout and plan to use the us-international layout.
    So I will need the combination from AltGr+ letter a lot. How should you press AltGr+P without placing the phone on a table?
    I may would have opted for the German layout if I knew this.
    But honestly I am still a bit shocked. Was there ever a good hwkb phone without sticky modifier?

    But also apart from my personal use case. Everybody needs modifiers. They even advert the possibility for ctrl+c/p on their website.
    I highly doubt that it is easy to press ctrl+c on this phone without placing it down. (There are a lot of other examples than ctrl+c).

    Does anybody know a software side solution or other workarounds?

    P.S. I know it was somehow discussed in this thread. But there it is specifically about Unicode characters. But while there are solutions other than sticky keys to type unicode characters, there are non for normal shortcuts ctrl+c (the other solutions for typing unicode characters are all bad in my opinion, but they do exist)

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    #34403
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    I agree that sticky modifiers could be a nice OPTION.
    BUT remember that with Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow on BOTH sides, we actually got easy access to FIVE layouts with a single thumb from either side:

      * (None),
      * Shift,
      * Ctrl,
      * YellowArrow
      * Ctrl+YellowArrow

    And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

    I’m not saying that we should not have sticky keys, merely that we might not need them as bad as we thought.

    It is unclear if Sym is supposed to be used as yet another modifier key, or to launch some symbol library, or something else….

    So maybe the ‘stickyness’ could be offered in three flavours

      None
      Alt (And Sym) only
      All modifiers

    And hopefully with some hotkey to turn it on off, as it might be annoying used on a desk.

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    #34405
    storyworks
    Hook
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    So, I’m just curious, are we talking about using the phone one-handed? I don’t tend to use my devices one-handed, possibly a hangover from using my Palms with a stylus. Even my blackberries I typed on with two hands. So at first I was confused about why holding down Ctrl and typing c or v would be hard. Now I’m curious what using sticky keys would be like.

    While I’ve always wanted a keyboard slider, for various odd reasons, I’ve never had one. Blackberry keyboards were always so cramped for my big hands that I never wrote more than I had to on them, but that’s what my work issued.

    I like Eske’s idea of it being able to be switched off and on by the user with possibly a couple of flavors of on.

    #34410
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    So, I’m just curious, are we talking about using the phone one-handed?

    Well even two handed it is a matter of the grip. The intuitive good grip operation is to hold in in both hands and type with the thumbs.
    And here it could be awkward to press say Alt+1.
    At the least it would require to let go the grip of the right hand.

    But one could even hold it with one hand completely passive and operate it completely by four or five fingers on the free hand – and if so sticky would not be needed, (except for some extreme combos like Shift+Alt+YellowArrow+P

    So much a matter of how you hold it if it is needed, I prefer the simple two thumb operation, but might change to using several fingers on the right hand instead,
    I have even experimented with various odd hybrids of holding in left hand and using left thumb, but only support the right side with one or two fingers, and operate with two-three right hand fingers. as pressing say BackSpace when supported relaxed in left hand only feels slightly wobbly.

    But with alternative holding unwanted screen interaction is more likely, Time will tell what I will find most productive…

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    #34409
    Wheeljack
    Wheeljack
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    From what I remember of the Düsseldorf meetup, optional sticky modifiers are definitely on the todo list.

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    #34431
    Craig
    Craig
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    So maybe the ‘stickyness’ could be offered in three flavours

      None

      Alt (And Sym) only

      All modifiers

    And hopefully with some hotkey to turn it on off, as it might be annoying used on a desk.

    Don’t forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that’s obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I’m surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

    #34452
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    Don’t forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that’s obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I’m surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

    Shift is part of “All”… The suggestion with THREE options, was to allow a mode where stickyness was limited to the modifiers only available on one side.

    Sticky modifiers are used to compensate for the lacking ability to do it directly with multiple fingers. But as there are Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow in both sides, it would be faster to write say P to use the Left Shift combined with the P by the right thumb.

    It is not as much a matter of it being complicated (I think), as a matter of it being a nuisance slowing down typing in the common scenario.
    Sure for the complex multi-modifier key strokes sticky would be preferable, but not for most users for writing ordinary text.
    That is a combo like Alt+Sh+Tab would be virtually impossible to to with thumbs only.

    But one should weigh whether these combos are so common that the inconvenience in letting the normal grip go to do them with one hand free occationally, is enough to outweigh the slowing down of normal typing.
    There will be no general answer for that, it will depend on each users usage-pattern, so hence I suggest the three options:

      * No sticky
      * Alt and Sym Sticky
      * All Sticky (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, YellowArrow, Sym)
    #34434
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    * Ctrl+YellowArrow
    And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

    This may be a solution (and thank you for the hint) but it may also hinder the tipping flow.
    Depending on where the letter is you need, you have to press and hold both the keys with your right or left hand.
    This most certainly requires you to shift hand position. I already see myself dropping the phone.

    #34453
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    * Ctrl+YellowArrow

    And I suggest to handle the last one as you would an AltGr in the mapping.

    This may be a solution (and thank you for the hint) but it may also hinder the tipping flow.

    Depending on where the letter is you need, you have to press and hold both the keys with your right or left hand.

    This most certainly requires you to shift hand position. I already see myself dropping the phone.

    Well you got Ctrl-YellowArrow next to each other on both sides, it is just pressing a thumb on both with one hand, combined with whatever key with the other thumb in the other side. No need to let go the grip at all :)

    #34433
    vlycop
    vlycop
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    From what I remember of the Düsseldorf meetup, optional sticky modifiers are definitely on the todo list.

    That’s good, but how post lunch update will come ? Android side or with the need to flash the hardware ?
    I don’t understand very well what software control you have on hardware in android :(

    #34454
    doktor.oswaldo
    doktor.oswaldo
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    Don’t forget shift. For those of used to hardware keyboards already, we expect a sticky shift and that’s obviously the most commonly used modifier, at least in English. I’m surprised this is even complicated since most (all?) other keyboard devices already do this.

    Shift is part of “All”… The suggestion with THREE options, was to allow a mode where stickyness was limited to the modifiers only available on one side.

    Sticky modifiers are used to compensate for the lacking ability to do it directly with multiple fingers. But as there are Shift, Ctrl and YellowArrow in both sides, it would be faster to write say P to use the Left Shift combined with the P by the right thumb.

    It is not as much a matter of it being complicated (I think), as a matter of it being a nuisance slowing down typing in the common scenario.

    Sure for the complex multi-modifier key strokes sticky would be preferable, but not for most users for writing ordinary text.

    That is a combo like Alt+Sh+Tab would be virtually impossible to to with thumbs only.

    But one should weigh whether these combos are so common that the inconvenience in letting the normal grip go to do them with one hand free occationally, is enough to outweigh the slowing down of normal typing.

    There will be no general answer for that, it will depend on each users usage-pattern, so hence I suggest the three options:

      * No sticky

      * Alt and Sym Sticky

      * All Sticky (Shift, Ctrl, Alt, YellowArrow, Sym)

    Sticky does not hinder the normal tipping. You can still just press shift and a letter. The only drawback is, that if you change your mind you have to cancel shift.

    #34464
    EskeRahn
    EskeRahn
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    According to this: hhttps://source.android.com/devices/input/key-character-map-files#keyboard-type-declaration it seems to be a matter of the KCM file signalling “FULL” or “ALPHA”, so MIGHT be as easy as having it as two ‘languages’…

    The “character picker” mentioned in the example for ALPHA sounds interesting too!!

    #34473
    vlycop
    vlycop
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    As long as i can, with both thumb, type all usual keyboard char, including accent and spacial ([email protected]#!;&_?|{[~ then the how dosn’t really mater to me.
    I just want a phone who will allow me to fix the prod servers away from my laptop. I’ll get use to the caviat

    #34480
    jason
    DW
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    TBH I don’t want sticky modifiers I use 2 hands on hardware keyboard phones

    #34492
    Gon009
    Gon009
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    I will definitely take advantage of having function keys on both sides, however I think that an option to have a toggle between sticky and non-sticky should be a thing in my opinion.
    Different people will use the phone, some won’t need sticky modifiers, some will need it. There’s really no choice currently when it comes to landscape keyboard phones and in my eyes, Pro1 should be as universal as possible. It’s not that we can buy a phone with keyboard we want because there will be only Pro1. Because of that keyboard should be as much customizable as possible so everyone wanting a physical keyboard can adjust it to own needs. Sticky modifiers or not, function key remapping, altgr and other things. Only this way Pro1 can be a king of physical landscape keyboards that will be a good replacement for all old physical landscape sliders so everyone wanting a physical landscape keyboard can buy Pro1 without any worries. I don’t know however how much freedom Android gives over the hardware.

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    jason DW
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